God Gives Man the Ability to Create Artificial Limbs
It appears that some would have us believe that since our human limbs do not automatically regenerate themselves if severed from our bodies, or grow later if we are born without them, that this may be used as a proof there is no God, or that He is not all powerful, or that He isn’t loving.I received the following post:
“Beast,
Science beats religion again:http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/scientists-give-a-helping-hand/2007/07/19/1184559904090.html Scientists invent most realistic replacement limb yet. And Tim, before you go saying "yes but god did that through them", then answer me why god has let all of the amputees to date suffer until now? Why not inspire someone to build this limb when the first arm was lost?” [MB]
In response to another comment given:
“"With God all things are possible".Alright then. Ask God to help amputees grow back lost limbs.If he can do that, I will go back to Church. No questions asked. Deal????” [BEAST]
First, I would like to say this is great technology that God has given man the ability to design and put into use. Secondly, I would like to say this technology in no way proves that God does not exist, that He is unable to do all things, or that He does not love.
1. Interestingly those that take the road of evolution as to the origins of life instead of creation by God cheer the mutation process which they believe evolves species as such, but don’t fault it with the lack of ability to reproduce human limbs, nor do they get mad when the same mutations refuse to allow a limb to grow with the baby as they develop in the womb. I realize that this is a most unsatisfactory answer, but if you don’t discount evolution because our severed and missing limbs do not replace themselves, there is no need to try and use this as a “proof” there is no God.
2. The ability of what God can do and what He chooses to do is completely different. By creating man perfect, God did more than He had too, and for sending His Son Jesus Christ to die for sin, so that His rebellious creation could one day live with Him for all eternity without sin was more than He had to do. God deserves glory and praise from us, if for nothing else giving us life (although He has given much more) and eternal life (which will far surpass this earthly life) through Jesus Christ. If man had been created with every ability to be equal with God, whereby we were able to never need God, how then would He be glorified and why would man honor Him? We would be prideful in our own works (as we still are most often) failing to realize that God Himself is all in all our Creator and maker of all that we think and do.
3. As far as love goes, simply because God has chosen to create mankind without the ability to regenerate missing, severed, or failing parts of our body does not mean He is without love. To speak of God without respecting what is written by and of Him in Scripture is merely a sign of the depravity of man refusing to accept God as He is and what He has said. God created man perfect and sinless, and it was man that chose to trust the words of another over God. By sin, all of creation is cursed and therefore suffers and is no longer perfect, but this does not mean God does not love, for He sent His Son Jesus Christ that those who by grace through faith trust in Him shall be saved and made whole for all eternity. This life is temporal and the love of God desires man to be sinless, spiritual, perfect, and whole to live with Him for all eternity, not to be a sinner, fleshly, imperfect, and continually having to regenerate our parts while living in this less than perfect world (not because of God, but because of sin against God). To say God does not love because He does not always give us everything we desire, is like a spoiled child in a supermarket.
Is this to say that I or any Christian knows all the mind of God? Far be it from our lips to utter such nonsense. Our inability to know, define, physically see, or scientifically prove God, in no way makes Him any less God. I realize this may upset some and may be unsatisfactory to others, but Truth is Truth whether we accept it or like it.
One may challenge God with amputees, but it does not discredit Him. For His wisdom far surpasses all the wisdom that man could ever grasp, though he could live a million years and steal the memories of all persons that ever were, man could not come to understand all that God is and knows. How many amputees have trusted in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet you who are whole deny Him with every breath. Why not ask them to share with you the testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ that lives within their being?
Denying that God exist because one refuses to submit to His authority is a sad thing, something not to be boastful about.
In response to another comment given:
“"With God all things are possible".Alright then. Ask God to help amputees grow back lost limbs.If he can do that, I will go back to Church. No questions asked. Deal????” [BEAST]
First, I would like to say this is great technology that God has given man the ability to design and put into use. Secondly, I would like to say this technology in no way proves that God does not exist, that He is unable to do all things, or that He does not love.
1. Interestingly those that take the road of evolution as to the origins of life instead of creation by God cheer the mutation process which they believe evolves species as such, but don’t fault it with the lack of ability to reproduce human limbs, nor do they get mad when the same mutations refuse to allow a limb to grow with the baby as they develop in the womb. I realize that this is a most unsatisfactory answer, but if you don’t discount evolution because our severed and missing limbs do not replace themselves, there is no need to try and use this as a “proof” there is no God.
2. The ability of what God can do and what He chooses to do is completely different. By creating man perfect, God did more than He had too, and for sending His Son Jesus Christ to die for sin, so that His rebellious creation could one day live with Him for all eternity without sin was more than He had to do. God deserves glory and praise from us, if for nothing else giving us life (although He has given much more) and eternal life (which will far surpass this earthly life) through Jesus Christ. If man had been created with every ability to be equal with God, whereby we were able to never need God, how then would He be glorified and why would man honor Him? We would be prideful in our own works (as we still are most often) failing to realize that God Himself is all in all our Creator and maker of all that we think and do.
3. As far as love goes, simply because God has chosen to create mankind without the ability to regenerate missing, severed, or failing parts of our body does not mean He is without love. To speak of God without respecting what is written by and of Him in Scripture is merely a sign of the depravity of man refusing to accept God as He is and what He has said. God created man perfect and sinless, and it was man that chose to trust the words of another over God. By sin, all of creation is cursed and therefore suffers and is no longer perfect, but this does not mean God does not love, for He sent His Son Jesus Christ that those who by grace through faith trust in Him shall be saved and made whole for all eternity. This life is temporal and the love of God desires man to be sinless, spiritual, perfect, and whole to live with Him for all eternity, not to be a sinner, fleshly, imperfect, and continually having to regenerate our parts while living in this less than perfect world (not because of God, but because of sin against God). To say God does not love because He does not always give us everything we desire, is like a spoiled child in a supermarket.
Is this to say that I or any Christian knows all the mind of God? Far be it from our lips to utter such nonsense. Our inability to know, define, physically see, or scientifically prove God, in no way makes Him any less God. I realize this may upset some and may be unsatisfactory to others, but Truth is Truth whether we accept it or like it.
One may challenge God with amputees, but it does not discredit Him. For His wisdom far surpasses all the wisdom that man could ever grasp, though he could live a million years and steal the memories of all persons that ever were, man could not come to understand all that God is and knows. How many amputees have trusted in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet you who are whole deny Him with every breath. Why not ask them to share with you the testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ that lives within their being?
Denying that God exist because one refuses to submit to His authority is a sad thing, something not to be boastful about.
32 comments:
Tim:
I am not sure what you are trying to prove here.
The patient obviously did not grow back the lost hand. Science has replaced "Gawk" by doing what a supposedly benevolent Gawk is supposed to do, but either cannot and will not.
To say that the scientists involved in the project were "inspired" by God is no more provable than me saying the Flying Sphagetti monster inspired the scientists to carry out this landmark project.
You claim that an atheist or unbeliever like myself is akin to a "spoilt child in the supermarket". Unfortunately, the spoilt child in the supermarket is not demanding for a limb to grow back. Such an analogy is horribly askew, I must add.
You claim that we atheists do not accuse "evolution" of its shortcomings. Again, obviously you have not read my previous posts to you, nor have you read Dawkins' books. No credible scientist will ever say evolution is perfect, and atheists like myself definitely do not attribute omnipotence to evolution.
As for being boastful, well, I am proud to be an atheist, because I feel it takes real guts to be one.
Beast
Oh, by the way, I am still not going back to church. No one's grown a limb back.
Try praying harder, Tim.
For one I have no idea what Gawk is, so I looked it up on the internet. Apparently it is: "The awk utility interprets a special-purpose programming language that makes it possible to handle simple data-reformatting jobs with just a few lines of code." And Gawk is: "the GNU implementation." So apparently Gawk is a "String manipulation language". I am a little unclear as to why you are talking about Gawk, unless that is the source code to the programming behind the "robotic hand" in the article.
As God is the Creator, by default, all of man's ability to know and do comes from God Himself.
You misrepresented what I said, by your comment, "You claim that an atheist or unbeliever like myself is akin to a "spoilt child in the supermarket"." What I did say was, "To say God does not love because He does not always give us everything we desire, is like a spoiled child in a supermarket." Through the entirety of point 3 (love) I do not make mention of atheists or nonbelievers, for there are also those which claim to believe in God that have a problem with His love when it comes to things they see He allows to come to pass, and there are also those which get mad at God when He does not give them all that they desire or believe they should have (Want).
I did not say that those which trust in the idea of evolution believe it to be perfect, but for you to say you will trust God if He will allow aputees to grow their limbs back (more specific, "Ask God to help amputees grow back lost limbs.If he can do that, I will go back to Church."), is weird when you trust in evolution which does not allow us to grow our limbs back. That is just not a good basis as to whether one should or should not trust in God, because the simply fact is, we can't grow limbs back because God, in His ultimate wisdom, choose us to not have that ability in creation. He could easily have created us with no limbs at all.
Honestly Beast, I don't want to get too personal here, because there is no need for personal attacks when discussing things, especially since we do not really know each other personally. But most of what I hear from atheists (including you) is that you are all in hiding somewhere, do not want to tell family, friends, jobs, etc. because of being scared what may happen, so how can you say, "I feel it takes real guts to be one." It really doesn't take guts to be a secret anything that merely rants at others over the interent, especially if they use fictious names, etc. And there are many things, such as murders, rapists, and suicide bombers that take guts, but aren't really a boastful quality either.
Oh no you are getting personal.
Most of my friends know I do not believe in God, and just a few hours ago I was telling my Christian friend how stupid Gawk (By the way, it means God. I purposely mispelt it) is.
Again, the child analogy is a poor one. Even if you were not mentioning atheists, the mere idea of juxtaposing a child's wanton need in a supermarket to a simply request to God (if he exists) to grow a limb is sheer stupidity on your part.
The idea that "Gawk can create us with no limbs at all" is pretty suggestive.... is he really the benevolent Gawk that you morons presume him to be???
Boastful or not, its my bloody right, and yes, you are damn right that I am proud to be an Atheist with a Capital A.
Honestly, do you really think I didn't know what you meant by gawk? lol
Gawk (to stare stupidly) is also what every single person will be doing when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". For it is written, "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" [Revelation 6:15-17]
"Most of my friends know I do not believe in God"... Do you speak to them as harsh as you often do here and to other believers on the internet? What of the rest of your friends, your aunt, your boss? I am not saying you are not proud (or believe yourself to be proud to be an athesit), I am simply saying by what you have said yourself and what others themselves have said, "it takes real guts to be one [atheist]" is not really altogether true. A closet atheists needs no guts.
Honestly Beast, I only mention this to show that your continual prideful boast of your atheism and how you are not afraid to "rebuke" me in every corner of the universe wherever I should go, yet you reframe from telling certain person (i.e. family) that you are an atheist shows that you are not altogether the mighty Beast you claim to be here over the internet. Does this in and of itself make you a most terrible person. Nah. It makes you just like everyone else. A lost sinner that needs to repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin, so that you may live for eternity perfect and holy in the presence of God. I wish you would...
Tim:
I do not know where you get this idea from, but I am not exactly a closet atheist.
The only reason I have never explicitly told my aunt about atheism is because when we talk theology, it often ends up on a very sour note.
I think my stand with regards to "standing in front of God" is simple, and I have said it before, and I will reiterate again:
I will personally crucify Jesus on the Cross again, and makes sure he really dies the second time round.
Damn the Jews. If only they did things right the first time round, anti-Semitism might actually never happen!
...if you don’t discount evolution because our severed and missing limbs do not replace themselves, there is no need to try and use this as a “proof” there is no God.
Ummm. You are aware that there are creatures who have evolved that DO have the ability to regenerate limbs, don't you? They are all lower organisms than man. Apparently God, in his infinite wisdom, did not think that humans, his special creation, were worthy of this ability. He must love starfish better than us.
The ability of what God can do and what He chooses to do is completely different.
Well, duh. Most Christians say he is omnipotent, yet he chooses to watch billions of his creatures suffer on a daily basis. He's worse than a little boy who pulls wings off of flies , because he is omni-benevolent, and still allows tsunamis, cancer and mental illness to be inflicted on humans, not to mention what he puts the animal kingdom through.
God deserves glory and praise from us, if for nothing else giving us life (although He has given much more) and eternal life (which will far surpass this earthly life) through Jesus Christ. If man had been created with every ability to be equal with God, whereby we were able to never need God, how then would He be glorified and why would man honor Him? We would be prideful in our own works (as we still are most often) failing to realize that God Himself is all in all our Creator and maker of all that we think and do.
This kind of writing is almost impenetrable. It's meaningless words. If you're trying to say that we should fall on our faces and worship God because of all the nifty things he does for us, including allowing us to spend eternity with him, I have two responses:
1. He has done NOTHING for us that we can't do for ourselves.
2. Have you given any thought about what it means to spend eternity doing ANYTHING? What are you going to do for eternity? Small talk with God? I get bored spending even a short period of time doing the same thing over and over. What's in heaven? Shuffleboard? Parcheesi?
Seriously. Why doesn't the Bible, or any other authority have a good description of heaven?
To say God does not love because He does not always give us everything we desire, is like a spoiled child in a supermarket.
Oy. Who said man wants everything we desire? Too much of a good thing, we've already figured out, is not good for us. But how about a little compassion for the child with cancer, who won't live to enjoy this world beyond age 2? How about some equality of life for everyone? Why do some of us get to live in hovels, and others mansions? How about preventing disease, war, and hatred? That's not too hard for an powerful god, is it? What? He LIKES to see us children throw a tantrum on the supermarket floor?
Is this to say that I or any Christian knows all the mind of God? Far be it from our lips to utter such nonsense. Our inability to know, define, physically see, or scientifically prove God, in no way makes Him any less God.
Sure it does. If he can't prove to us that he exists, and doesn't, he's not as powerful, or loving, as you think, and I say he doesn't exist.
I realize this may upset some and may be unsatisfactory to others, but Truth is Truth whether we accept it or like it.
You saying it doesn't make it TRUE either.
One may challenge God with amputees, but it does not discredit Him.
No one is challenging God - one can't challenge something that doesn't exist. You have completely missed the point.
People point to miracles as proof of God's existence. All the miracles that are held up as proof could have occurred naturally, and all of them have reasonable, natural, non-supernatural explanations. All of them. From the beginning of time, no -one has been able to prove a supernatural explanation for an alleged miracle.
However, since we know that humans cannot, and have never, regrown a detached limb, if someone actually did, after being prayed for, that would be nearly irrefutable evidence of a miracle.
Don't hold your breath that it will ever occur.
Brilliant, John, brilliant!
Now time for some popcorns and a good bottle of coke.
Tim
I am the one who left the initial link to the limb replacement story. As expected, you replied with the same old sad christian nonsense:
1. god inspired the scientists, so he really does heal amputees! gee whiz!
2. he didn't do it earlier because.. uh.. um.. uh.. he works in mysterious ways!
Anything you tards can't explain is "don't question god". Are you serious? You are actually dumb enough to accept "don't question it"?? Drink the kool aid. Hell it even says in the bible that you can drink the kool aid! Jimmy Jones = jesus!
Regarding the subject matter, go read http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
It outlines how the bible promises that god should have at least healed ONE amputee by now, and how he heals all kinds of other sicknesses all the time (which coincidentally can't be verified that it really was god), and ignores amputees. And as john p said, with a flick of the wrist he could have made us able to regenerate limbs, like he did with other animals. Would have stopped a lot of suffering. Nope.
But that's fine, read it, reject it, repeat to yourself "god works in mysterious ways, it is not for me to question god". Meanwhile, us atheists and scientists will go on working on medicine and medical technology to actually help people with problems, rather than sitting around in a big circle chanting at the sky, while noone is listening.
Tim:
Even the title of your this article is askew.
"God gives Man the Ability to Create Artificial Limbs">???
It should have been:"Science triumphs over God: Man Creates Artificial Limbs, God Creates Nothing".
That would have been apt, and logical too.
John P,
Yes I am aware that God saw it fit to create some animals with the ability to regenerate limbs, it was just not in His purpose for humans too. This does not mean He loves starfish better (as you put it), but simply His design was different for each.
Sin is why we “suffer on a daily basis”, for He created a sinless world with sinless people. It was man that decided to sin instead of obey, and we have been doing it ever since.
There is more than you will most likely admit that God has done for man that man cannot do. Creation is one and Salvation is another. Without these two alone, man could not live, and could not live again.
What does it matter if the Bible or “any other authority” gives us all of the details surrounding heaven? You don’t believe in God anyway, and since you don’t believe in God you will not have to worry as to what those that put their trust in Christ to have their sins forgiven will be doing in heaven. Now you may want to check out what will be happening elsewhere to those that refuse to believe and trust in Christ.
It is interesting to hear people cry of “free will” demanding God allow them to do all and everything they desire, yet also scream at God for not stopping things from happening or making things happen a certain way (which in their mind is always right).
To say God “can’t prove to us that he exists” is just a statement of rejection of what God has shown and given us proving that He is. You deny Him simply because you refuse to submit to His authority. Seeing Him face to face, in and of itself, would not change your mind. You may then KNOW He is, but would you ACCEPT Him and Lord and Savior repenting of your SIN of unbelief and other transgressions of His laws?
As for miracles, there are plenty of recording miracles which are unexplainable by doctors, science, and the natural realm. Discounting them by assuming there is a logical explanation (which no one knows) is simply a denial of the Truth that God is and choose to work miracles as His pleasure. Yet the best miracle for me and you is the sending of His Son Jesus Christ to suffer the cross that we may be forgiven and cleansed of sin and to be made perfect (without blemish or handicap) for all eternity.
I did notice that when speaking of an amputee, even if God caused the limb to be restored fully, you write, “nearly irrefutable evidence of a miracle”. See, I already know miracles and the sight of God will not cause you to trust Him, for they did not cause the Pharisees to trust in Him (whom they were already seeking). You, my friend, need to submit to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, repent, and ask Christ to save your soul.
---
MB,
I realize it was you who left the comment, and I gave you full credit in my post. I also realize that anything you can’t explain, the answer is “science hasn’t figured it out yet”, so can you really fault a Christian when they simply say, “I do not fully know or understand the mind of God”?
Questioning God is not the same as questioning man. Mr. Jim Jones should have been questioned because He did not follow what God has clearly given in the Scriptures. All persons should test all preachers, teachers, saved and lost with the very Bible God have given and they say they believe.
Also at a flick of the wrist, God could send all atheists to hell today, but He is longsuffering toward the just and the unjust, allowing us the time to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, eternal life, and a new body that shall never have any amputees.
And I appreciate that God allows both the saved and unsaved the ability to development medicines and conveniences that both the saved and unsaved may enjoy. I just wish the unsaved would acknowledge God and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, that they too will be able to enjoy the pleasures of a holy dwelling place with Him for all eternity.
---
Beast,
To name the title “Science triumphs over God: Man Creates Artificial Limbs, God Creates Nothing”, would have been a lie, that is why I properly named it, "God Gives Man the Ability to Create Artificial Limbs"
Yes I am aware that God saw it fit to create some animals with the ability to regenerate limbs, it was just not in His purpose for humans too.
Well, then, by default, his purpose was to make sure that if man lost a limb, he would have to suffer through whatever was left of his life without it. While the starfish did not. Great god, there. Really worth worshiping.
This does not mean He loves starfish better (as you put it), but simply His design was different for each.
But I thought Christians believed that god had a purpose for everything? What you say seems to imply that his designs were somewhat...purposeless.
Sin is why we “suffer on a daily basis”, for He created a sinless world with sinless people. It was man that decided to sin instead of obey, and we have been doing it ever since.
Assuming that "sin" exists (there's no evidence, it sounds like it is a made up concept to me - you can't touch it, feel it, sense it in any way, or measure it. So how do we find it?) why did god create us imperfect, and then demand that we be perfect? Put another way, why did he create us to be sinful, and demand that we not sin? Sounds like a miscalculation in his design, or he did it on purpose so that he could watch us sin. That makes him either incompetent or evil.
There is more than you will most likely admit that God has done for man that man cannot do. Creation is one and Salvation is another. Without these two alone, man could not live, and could not live again.
Lets take those two wonderful things he did for us, then.
Creation: He created us so that some of us could die in a tsunami, others could contract cancer, others would become mentally ill, others would starve to death, others would be killed in murderous genocide, others would live very fine lives then die of Alzheimer's think Ronald Reagan), others would live in relative poverty, others would win the lotto (but not many), etc, etc. There's a lot of people out there who are not very thankful for this wonderful gift called creation. Personally, I am grateful that my parents created me, because without their love for each other, and the desire to have children, I wouldn't be here to argue with you. And today, this makes my day.
Salvation: God sets up the first humans so that they are put into a position to defy him, he knowing full well that they will do so, and then waits 4000 years to send his son to be tortured and killed in order to "save" us from this "sin"? Why do you and I need to be saved from something we had nothing to do with, that happened before you and I were born? Where is the logic in that? And why go through all this drama? Why not snap his fingers and "save" us? Please give me a break. I have a brain, one that you feel has been god given, and my brain says that is not only illogical, but sadistic.
What does it matter if the Bible or “any other authority” gives us all of the details surrounding heaven?
I was just wondering. Don't you wonder why there is no real description of this place you think you are going? Don't you wonder where it is you're going to spend eternity, and what you are going to do there for...eternity? I mean, there is a better description of hell in the bible than that of heaven. Why leave it to our imagination?
You don’t believe in God anyway, and since you don’t believe in God you will not have to worry as to what those that put their trust in Christ to have their sins forgiven will be doing in heaven.
True enough.
Now you may want to check out what will be happening elsewhere to those that refuse to believe and trust in Christ.
The same thing? Nothing?
It is interesting to hear people cry of “free will” demanding God allow them to do all and everything they desire, yet also scream at God for not stopping things from happening or making things happen a certain way (which in their mind is always right).
What does man's free will have to do with, say, a tornado? Do you think I could stop a tornado with the exercise of my free will?
To say God “can’t prove to us that he exists” is just a statement of rejection of what God has shown and given us proving that He is.
And that would be...?
You deny Him simply because you refuse to submit to His authority. Seeing Him face to face, in and of itself, would not change your mind.
There you are wrong. If he showed his cowardly little face to me, and proved to me he existed, I'd change my mind. As I said before, I won't hold my breath. (and his image on a toasted cheese sandwich doesn't count)
You may then KNOW He is, but would you ACCEPT Him and Lord and Savior repenting of your SIN of unbelief and other transgressions of His laws?
See above.
As for miracles, there are plenty of recording miracles which are unexplainable by doctors, science, and the natural realm.
Show me one. Seriously. You only need to prove one, and I'm a believer. Anecdotal testimony from great Aunt Hilda about how her lumbago was cured when she dipped her hand in holy water, doesn't count. You know what I mean by proof. I don't want to believe in miracles I want to know them. Belief is what you have when you have no evidence.
Discounting them by assuming there is a logical explanation (which no one knows) is simply a denial of the Truth that God is and choose to work miracles as His pleasure.
Ummm... no. A logical, non-supernatural explanation means that the laws of nature as we know them have not been temporarily altered, which is what a miracle is, by definition. Therefore, it is not a miracle. Your "truth" is still not known.
Yet the best miracle for me and you is the sending of His Son Jesus Christ to suffer the cross that we may be forgiven and cleansed of sin and to be made perfect (without blemish or handicap) for all eternity.
Well, like any other miracle, I'd need proof that it happened. But that doesn't sound like a miracle anyway. Right now, that's just a story in a book. If you think that story, written in the Bible constitutes proof, then you must also believe in the Great White Whale (Moby Dick, another book), The Mad Hatter and the Cheshire Cat (Alice in Wonderland) and Frodo Baggins, the Hobbit. Imagine, you could actually be invisible if you could only find the Ring, my precious.
I did notice that when speaking of an amputee, even if God caused the limb to be restored fully, you write, “nearly irrefutable evidence of a miracle”.
Is your objection to the word "nearly"? I used that word, because I don't foreclose the possibility that science (not god) will discover the gene that Starfish have, that we probably also have, that allows regeneration of limbs, and figure out how to turn it on for humans. I do think that is a real possibility, so that would have to be negated first, before I believed it was a miracle. But my mind is still open to the possibility. Is your's?
See, I already know miracles and the sight of God will not cause you to trust Him, for they did not cause the Pharisees to trust in Him (whom they were already seeking). You, my friend, need to submit to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, repent, and ask Christ to save your soul.
OK. I'll do it. I hereby repent and call on Christ to save my soul. I'm serious too. Do it Christ, save my soul!
tap, tap, tap.
Nothing has happened yet. I'll let you know if and when it does.
Some fool said:
" Have you given any thought about what it means to spend eternity doing ANYTHING? What are you going to do for eternity? Small talk with God? I get bored spending even a short period of time doing the same thing over and over. What's in heaven? Shuffleboard? Parcheesi?
Seriously. Why doesn't the Bible, or any other authority have a good description of heaven? "
Do you, even for a moment, glimpse the finite nature of your (and my), mind? You cannot comprehend eternity because your mind is finite, you cannot comprehend a four dimensional object, yet math says it can exist, and computer sims can give us an idea. yet your mind cannot because it thinks in 3 dimensions, not 4. You want a discription of Heaven, which resides beyond the dimensions of space time, and beyond your ability to comprehend. The Bible is about knowing God and His plan for your life, not a book to explain all mystery. God is WAY bigger than your mind, and spending eternity with Him will more than satisfy even the most simple minded of men.
Ian: Infinity is not an obscure concept.
The number "0" is an infinite number. To speak of eternity as infinity is to speak of nothing.
Infinity is actually speaking of the potential of anything possible by God. Meaning all that God desires for it to be.
For I have read, "Zero is not just a number. It is a placeholder for potential."
So to speak of infinity (zero) could actually be a lot of possible somethings.
Speaking from a materialistic point of view, infinity and zero is just about the same.
0 is nothingness, and infinity in materialistic terms is impossibility.
Infinity, as beast pointed out, is an abstract concept, just like heaven. It resides solely in the minds of men, no where else. To superimpose your concept of heaven on an abstract concept is merely wishful thinking.
Like prayer.
Tim
You avoided making any meaningful comment on anything I asked. Good work. Very christian of you.
John P,
You choose to dwell on the negative aspects of sin and that which you cannot fully explain/understand or have explained to you, and fail to see the goodness of God all around you. You do not question me for answers, but for the sake of mocking.
Your misunderstanding of the things of God are easily observable in your writing. God did not create man imperfect. Man chose to disobey God, which had created a sinless world and a sinless man. Man became a sinner by disobeying God, therefore the curse and the fallen state of man is upon the head of man, not God. It is God who has sent His Son to pay the sin debt that man, though a sinner, can be cleansed of sin and made perfect in Christ.
Seek wisdom from the Scriptures (Proverbs 3:5-7) and trust in Christ for salvation, and some of your questions may come to light with the wisdom of God.
Simply do a google search for medical miracles and you will find more than you need. I did.
Repent and when you do honestly trust Christ for salvation, you'll know it.
I know that deep within your heart that you know God exist, that is why you kick so hard against it.
---
MB,
As with John P and Beast, you also are not honestly looking for answers, but arguement and mockery. My words will not convince you for you kick against the truth with all your might. What I fear is that even if science (which some scientist have) were to acknowledge tomorrow there is a God, would you be able to humbly submit, repent, and beg forgiveness from Him and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of your life? Or would pride keep you from such?
I can't say I wasn't mocking you, Tim. But you have not provided me with any evidence to your supernatural claims.
You claim that there are "evidences" of miracles detailed all over the net. But frankly, do you wish for us atheists to believe in these cock-and-bull stories? I could tell you the tales of people seeing the virgin mary at lourdes, but will you be convinced and convert to catholicism?
Tim, kindly use some common sense and logic, instead of ad hominem attacks. It is quite apparent to me that your hypocrisy has been exposed, and you are not very pleased about it.
All I said was you didn't face the questions in my post or the links I gave you. You honestly can not explain why prayers are ignored when the bible says they will be answered. You have no answer for that. You can only avoid it by trying to quote some other conflicting part that weasels out of the prayer promise. Surely even you must realize that is a half assed way of avoiding my question?
If evidence came to light that a god existed, I would be happy to accept that evidence. That is because it would become FACT instead of DREAM. That is what atheists are about - verifiable facts. Religious people are about evidenceless dreams.
“hypocrisy has been exposed, and you are not very pleased about it”
Oh please Beast, we have determined that you, yourself, are also a hypocrite. If I am a hypocrite because I do not have all the answers concerning Scripture and God, then so be it.
If you can continue to trust, believe, put faith in, or whatever word you choose to use, in science and blame only man for error – then I freely ask you to blame me for all the errors I may have in misunderstanding and not fully knowing the Scriptures and God, but God and the Scriptures remain just the same.
And the same answer applies to you MB. For one, you are not honestly seeking answers, and two, regardless of my ability or inability to answer questions in no way denies the importance of Scripture nor existence of God Almighty.
The problem with atheists, and their “verifiable facts”, is that today your “verifiable facts” may differ from your “verifiable facts” of yesterday, and you have no problem converting from one view to another on the word of man, which may actually be wrong when “verifiable facts” of tomorrow arise.
I hadn't had a chance to view the links, but when I do I will see what they say...
Mr Tim, Mr Tim:
Quit the ad hominems and start giving us some verifiable facts for a change.
"Oh please Beast, we have determined that you, yourself, are also a hypocrite. If I am a hypocrite because I do not have all the answers concerning Scripture and God, then so be it."
Who's "we"? You and some mysterious Christian? So I am a hypocrite? For what? For posting on your blog? Well then, call me a hypocrite all you want, but I do not nix and pix and pick whichever fits my worldview and my beliefs. I only look at facts and evidence.
"The problem with atheists, and their “verifiable facts”, is that today your “verifiable facts” may differ from your “verifiable facts” of yesterday, and you have no problem converting from one view to another on the word of man, which may actually be wrong when “verifiable facts” of tomorrow arise."
Are you sure that Christian worldviews and "facts" don't change? Then why are you Christians always telling me that old testaments don't apply anymore? Care to explain?
If scientists adhere to facts and evidence to sieve their views, isn't this a better and more honest trait, than to insist on some old stupid views like 7 day creations and 6000 yr old planets when the evidence proves otherwise?
Tim, if you can't defend your beliefs, just say you can't. Be a good loser and quit blogging. Your posts are frankly of poor quality, and don't deserve any place in the blogosphere.
Sincerely
Beast
Honestly Beast,
If you cannot handle my freedom to blog, simply don’t visit my blog. Coming to my blog demanding I shut it down or refrain from writing only shows more of your discomfort in handling and seeing the things of God written on the internet (regardless of how well or poor my writing and thoughts are).
It also shows your complete show of hypocrisy as you spend so much time at my blog ranting and demanding I be given no tolerance to write, while all the while hiding your true atheism from family and co-workers crying about intolerance toward atheists.
Grow some maturity and visit elsewhere if you have no desire to read my thoughts and respectfully disagree as other atheists I have conversed with do. If you want Christians and/or others to show tolerance toward you, then by all means show the character traits of one deserving of such.
I have more than allowed you to spew your venom all over my blog, only deleting your more vial, perverted, pornographic, and distasteful posts which do nothing to forward good conversation for Christians or Atheists. You seem to be a man of anger, by which it seems to govern you well. Or, is this just an internet persona, that allows you to vent your frustrations of daily life?
I will continue to express my view, through my blog, and you will have to decide whether you choose to read it or not. You are free to agree or disagree, but the reality is, even if you (or any other) is able to totally discounted all that I have ever written or will write, rest assured God is and always will be, and you, my friend, will one day stand before Him, and all the scripture and witness that you have been given throughout your life, through friends, family, and yes, even reading my blog, will hold you accountable as a sinner to a holy God which you willfully reject in spite of Him sending His Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross, that all those which put their faith in Him shall received salvation and eternal life.
Oh give me a break, for goodness sake!
Whatever the hell gave you the idea that I was a "closet atheist", perhaps you should put this straight into your head, once and for all, that all my friends, even my aunt, know jolly well that I am a man of the godless.
In fact, I have even written to newspapers and been interviewed from the position of an atheist. You can even read my interview with the local journalist here. Why do you keep harping about it? Don't you have anything else to counter? Us atheists have a lot of questions, you know!!
Of course you can blog, but there again, I also have the freedom to tell you to shut it down, since you can't defend your own stand. Hypocritical? Not really. Am I forcing you to shut it down? No. By all means, carry on, I just love to see you squirm, that's all.
My family, for your info, are basically pagans. They worship chinese gods, and don't really care with regards to my beliefs. In fact, at one point, my uncle and my father were really pissed of with my Christianity.
So, Tim, leave my family and my atheism out of this, and focus on getting yourself out of your quagmire instead.
Beast
You choose to dwell on the negative aspects of sin and that which you cannot fully explain/understand or have explained to you, and fail to see the goodness of God all around you. You do not question me for answers, but for the sake of mocking.
Whoa there, pahdner. I dwell on the negative aspects of sin? I, who does not even believe in the concept of sin? It is Christians such as yourself who categorize things that you do not like (example: homosexuality) and call it sin. Just exactly who is dwelling on the negative aspects of a non-existent concept?
Your misunderstanding of the things of God are easily observable in your writing. God did not create man imperfect. Man chose to disobey God, which had created a sinless world and a sinless man. Man became a sinner by disobeying God, therefore the curse and the fallen state of man is upon the head of man, not God. It is God who has sent His Son to pay the sin debt that man, though a sinner, can be cleansed of sin and made perfect in Christ.
And you know this how? From Genesis, which even the most conservative theologians acknowledge is at best a metaphor?
Seek wisdom from the Scriptures (Proverbs 3:5-7) and trust in Christ for salvation, and some of your questions may come to light with the wisdom of God.
Simply do a google search for medical miracles and you will find more than you need. I did.
OK. I did as your suggested. I typed "medical miracles" into Google.
Here's the first one that popped up. A quote:
For more than a decade during the Christmas season, Steinberg highlighted "miracle cases" at the clinic, presenting tales of remarkable recoveries to lift the spirits of doctors and nurses.
In other words, while doctors don't believe in them, they call them miracles during the Christmas season, to bolster spirits. Isn't that nice? Certainly not proof of a supernatural miracle, though.
Here's the second one from google search. Oprah reporting on medical miracles, after radical new medical procedures! Gee, science at work.
Are you beginning to get the drift, here? "Medical miracle" is a figure of speech.
Find me a site that shows proof of a supernatural resolution of a medical problem, and I'll change my mind. That's proof now. Scientific proof. Not some Christian site that claims it's a miracle, one that proves it.
Repent and when you do honestly trust Christ for salvation, you'll know it.
I know that deep within your heart that you know God exist, that is why you kick so hard against it.
As I said before, don't hold your breath.
Please Listen to me. I had a personal encounter with God and you atheists who accuse him of injustice have no idea of the dangerous ground you are treading.
I got sort of a glimpse of the way God sees us. When Adam and Eve sinned by listening to Satan they severed the relationship they could have had with God and became evil.
Since then man has chosen Satan's way of lust greed and selfishness. This means that for the most part God has turned His back on all of us. He doesn't protect us or help us because of our iniquities. Our whole race has rebelled against him and collectively said in our hearts we don't want your laws over us .. we want to go our own way.. we despise your commandments and love sin.
This means that most people alive today He sees as heathens.. children of disobedience, meaning He sees most people as wicked criminals undeserving of taking their next breath let alone having limbs regenerated. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed without mercy because of their great iniquities.. do you think most people alive today are lesser sinners than them?
Unless people today repent they will all likewise perish. We as a race are deserving of nothing but wrath because of our lawless selfish ways, we are under grace and great mercy by the very fact that God doesn't make us all pay the penalty we deserve here and now by unleashing great wrath on us. (which is soon coming by the way, unless there is a worldwide collective repentance)
What you are asking is sort of like a murderer in prison making demands of society to have every discomfort corrected. The murderer is simply being held for trial and judgment for their crimes.
Thats the situation with most of us.. most people have sinned ..refused to repent and are now under the penalty of the law.. unless they repent they have only wrath and judgment to look forward to from God..
For the most part unless they get right with Him, He will not even hear their prayers and will not grant them any favors. They are just hear awaiting judgment for their evil deeds.
The good news is He has provided a way out. He didn't have to but He himself came to earth and was manifested in the flesh.. He lived a life of suffering and died a horrible death to pay the penalty we deserved. Thats how much He loved us, He was willing to suffer and die to save wicked, unappreciative, rebellious criminals like us.
All you have to do is repent (Be remorsefully sorry for breaking his Holy righteous just Law) accept the sacrifice He made for you and do your beast to turn away from your evil deeds (breaking His commandments) and live rightly. Meaning Loving God and loving your neighbor. If you do this he promises that though you may suffer terribly in this life you will be ressurected in a perfect spirit body and live forever.
His free gift is eternal life and an end to suffering forever if you will just accept
Steve
u knw after reading all those comments, I as the christian, im proud to be it and i've dedicated most of ma life to it... after reading beast's and Tim's response, i thought to myself that these two men are one of those who i like to call, STUCK UPS!! i mean, seriously Tim.......GET A LIFE!i'll be sad to see your asking for a drop of water on your tongue in hell, I'll say u deserve it, hope God will hav mercy on you.
oh by the way guys, God is the best thing that can ever happen to a man's life!!so think about it, which life do u wanna be in, Hell or Heaven?
I'd thank God for the wonderful creation that he have blessed us with..he created human's and he gave us talents so we could work with it and answer some of our own question instead of relying to him most of the time.
I don't want to be confused with the other anonymous posters, so I'll be known as "C".
To the Christian writer of "Splinters of Silver" I believe he is refered to as "Tim". I was just on the Google and some how came across this blog. I have read some of your earlier 2007 posts and it sounds like you have defended the Christian Faith, my Faith, our Faith well. From the few posts I've read I feel that you have defended the Faith in a way that the Lord smiles on, I don't mean to sound like I know for sure how He feels about your posts, but I FEEL that He is pleased with your evangelistic posts. I feel this way because I found myself cheering you on! As you stated in an earlier post there will come a day when the Lord shall appear and those who love Him and have waited faithfully for Him will rejoice with great gladness and the unbelievers will TRY run and TRY to hide but there will be no where to run and no where for them to hide.
I want to encourage you to continue in the good "fight of faith" (as the Apostle Paul) referred to the labor. Continue to speak the truth so that willing hearts may hear and be saved but also so that all unbelieving hearers can't say that weren't forewarned when they stand before The LORD who is mightier than the mightiest of the mighty. The LORD who is the Commander and Ruler over an innumerable army of Mighty Angels and any single one of them could single handedly wipe out entire armies on Earth at the whisper of the Lord Jesus' consent.
You and I both know that most unbelievers know deep down on the inside that what Jesus has said in the Bible and what all the Bible says is true. They wrestle against it because they hate it, they hate the truth because it tells them that their lifestyle of faithlessness is evil. They don't want to obey what Jesus says because they love their sinful lifestyles. Believers realize that we are messed up and need a Savior, and we hate our sinful nature. Unbelievers cling to their sins like a disobedient child would cling to a candy coated arsenic pop, and they attempt to cleanse their own conscience by saying stuff like "I don't believe in the concept of sin". Well, God does and guess what he has the final say on the matter, because he created everything and he owns everything. Don't like it? Take it up with the 10 foot Angel with the flaming sword.
Be encouraged Tim and remember that Jesus foretold that there would be some who would hate the family of God simply because we speak the true message He has given us to speak. He foretold that there would be those who would resist the truth and hate it, and all that I have read from this "beast", "mb", and "john p" and every other person who mocks and persecutes the Christian Faith is only more evidence that God is real and everything that Jesus said is true, and He is coming back soon, because he foretold that what they've said would be said.
So be encouraged Tim that all that Jesus has said and foretold WILL come to pass. Let God's people keep obeying Him so that we will have no need to be ashamed when He returns. I want to encourage you not to grow weary in well doing, Tim. Evil doers don't take a day off, so imagine what would happen if the faithful stopped praying, fasting, giving, preaching, teaching, hoping, believing, caring and loving.
I pray for you Tim and all who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, that the Lord Jesus continue to teach and train us up in the Truth, and may He fuel our zeal and keep us strong and untainted by this evil world, until the day He returns and sets all things according to His perfect will, as they should be. In Jesus' Name, Amen. (:
Thank you C for your visit and your encouragement.
I sure don’t have all of the answers, and merely try to give my honest thoughts at the time I write them, realizing there is much about God, the Scriptures, and Christianity I need to learn and grow in.
I pray also that God will hold you up, and allow you to be a witness for Him wherever you are.
Tim
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